In this episode I chat with Dr. Cindy Trice from Relief Rover. We cover it all… from the increase in demand for relief veterinarians and relief veterinary technicians / veterinary nurses and what happened to this veterinary niche at the peak of the pandemic; the characteristics of veterinary professionals that make them best suited to be veterinary independent contractors, and how to get started with this exciting and flexible career path.
LISTEN TO THE PODCAST
FEATURED ON THE SHOW
- How long you should practice before coming a Relief Vet
- Whether or not advanced training is needed to be a Relief Vet or Relief Tech
- The importance of being flexible
- How the pandemic influenced demand for relief help initially, and what it looks like now
- Relief Rover: What it is and why you should join (for free!) as a veterinarian or veterinary technician
RESOURCES FROM THIS EPISODE:
Relief Rover Website: https://reliefrover.com
Relief Vet Information: https://reliefrover.com/relief-veterinarians/relief-vet-101/
Relief Rover Facebook Page: https://facebook.com/reliefrover
Relief Rover Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reliefrover/
Relief Rover Twitter: https://twitter.com/reliefrover
Relief Rover LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/reliefrover
Relief Rover Feature in The Joyful DVM Membership: https://joyfuldvm.com/membership
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THIS IS AN AUTO-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT AND MAY CONTAIN TYPOS... Hi, everybody. Welcome to episode 62. I'm Dr. Cari Wise, the host of the Joyful DVM podcast. And today we're going to be speaking with Dr. Cindy Trice, the founder of Relief Rover and relief vet extraordinary. We had so much fun recording this episode and what Cindy had to share about her vet med career and her journey over the years since becoming a veterinarian and even before is inspiring to say the least. So even if you're not thinking about doing relief work as a veterinarian or a veterinary technician, you absolutely need to check out this episode to listen to what Dr. Cindy has to offer as far as inspiration and perspective on a career that has taken her many places. Let's jump right in. So let's jump in. Are You ready? I'm ready. All right. So I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. This is going to be so much fun to tell everybody about you and about relief Rover and just to help spread the word of all the great work that you're doing and the opportunities for relief veterinarians. So let's just start out, tell us a little bit about yourself and your vet med career journey. And how did you end up here? What is your journey, your career journey been like? So actually vet med was a second career for me. So prior to that med, I worked in corporate video production and I, I worked on commercials and documentaries and news and kinda, I was a freelancer like I am now. And I think honestly, that, that previous career in production kind of set, set, set my pace for working and how I like to work. What I found was that I really liked to come in, work a job, build a relationship with a relationship with a team and then kind of move on to the next thing. And so it sort of sets the style of what I like. I ended up going to, I was living in San Francisco and when I decided I wanted to be a veterinarian and I had very successfully avoided science classes in my undergraduate years. So to go back and take all of those, and I did that at night while working at a pet hospital as a customer service rep, which we called receptionist at the time, as long as the receptionist in San Francisco. And then I would go to school at night and I basically just picked up the science classes at whatever community college or four year university would fit into my work schedule. And so it took me about three and a half years to get my pre-recs to get into vet school. I ended up going to UC Davis. I'm a 2004 grad and I graduated and, and started an internship in Tampa, Florida. I ended up getting sick, had to drop out of that internship, then got well, became an associate, went back to the internship because it bugged me so much that I didn't finish it. And ended up after that second round of internship, that was when I ended up going into being a relief veterinarian. So you went right from your schooling and then your internship experience to doing relief work. So did you, you never worked as an associate, like in a full-time capacity anywhere in the meantime, or? Yeah, I had, so the first internship I dropped out after a few months for, I was actually diagnosed with cancer, was treated for cancer. Then I went and worked as an associate at a practice for about a year and a half, and then went back to the internship. So I had a little bit of associate experience and, you know, one N an eighth internship experience. And then I started doing really Okay. I love, I'm so glad that we took the time to share your story because I know your story, but to hear you tell it kind of with all these pieces together, really paints a different kind of picture. And I think that a few things, I mean, obviously your story of surviving cancer, that's amazing. And I know you're doing, I know we're not here to talk about KickIt pajamas, but I'm just going to throw the name out there. People go check that out. It's amazing. Another thing that Cindy is doing, but in addition to that, I think what's fascinating is I didn't realize how little time you had been in a, kind of more of a traditional associate type role. And I think there's an idea out there that you can't be a relief vet if you haven't been an associate or been a quote unquote real vet, right? So like a full-time in a practice kind of vet for, I don't even know what the number would be like five years, I guess, if I had to pick a number. So maybe talk a little bit about that. Like, do you think that it, what are your thoughts on people who want to get out of vet school and do really well? What would you tell somebody who is really interested in that career path right out of the gate? I think it really depends on the individual quite honestly, because I do think that there were advantages to having worked at a general practice, even if just for a year and a half, and also having the emergency experience on my internship. Because although the, you know, for those of you that have done internships and it may vary depending on which one you do, but we had most of it, you're, you're kind of rotating through and you're doing a lot of the grunt work and you're learning from the specialist, but on Yar, they really use you as a primary ER doctor. And although you have some support with some seasoned ER, doctors there, and maybe depending on the time of day or night access to some specialists, for the most part, you're acting as an associate for them. And you're, you're responsible for your own ER cases. So that was how it worked on our, our internship. So I was able to get some good experience that way. So because often, you know, the, the scariest thing sometimes in going into a practice is if something that feels out of your depth comes in the door and the things, the cases that are going to be most uncomfortable when you're out of your depth is something that's emergent. Right? And so I think having that emergency experience sort of fast tracked me to be able to do relief work because I wasn't super scared of the emergencies. Now, I say I wasn't super scared cause I was still a little bit scared. And frankly, if I'm being perfectly honest, sometimes I still am. But you know, I, I knew that I had the basics and I knew that I could, could triage and stabilize almost anything, even if I couldn't necessarily take it all the way to the conclusion because I, I didn't have all the knowledge or skills necessary. The other thing that the internship helped me with with being a relief that was, I had access to a network of specialists. So, and I wasn't afraid to ask for help. So if I found myself in a position doing relief work where I didn't know what was going on or what to do next, I did not hesitate to call that specialty center where I did my internship and ask for help. And the majority of the time I could get it. And it wasn't uncommon uncommon for me to find myself in a situation where I wasn't sure what to do. I think that that brings up a really, really good point and something that I hear a lot when I talk to veterinarians right now, is this fear of asking for help. So this recognition that they, that they, they don't really know a hundred percent what's going on and let's be honest, like none of us know, a hundred percent what's going on when we deal with a case, that's the beauty and the challenge of veterinary medicine. It's always a mystery, but in those moments where they recognize that this one's really outside of what I've ever experienced before, I'm not sure what to do next. There's this really interesting kind of wall that they hit of. I can't ask for help because it's going to make me look weak or incompetent or stupid, or they're going to think bad things about me or something like that. And I love that you said that you didn't ever hesitate to ask for help. So for somebody who's terrified just to ask for help, what would you tell them? Yeah, I was lucky in that my first job as, as an associate, I had amazing mentors and that was one of the things my mentor told me. It was like, Hey, there is no shame in not knowing. And he told me he was, you know, I mean, I don't remember how many years he'd been out in practice, but a very long time owned the practice. And he said, I still, you know, I, I, I am willing to tell clients, I'm not sure I need to go find out. He said, there is no shame in saying that and buying yourself some time. And so I saw him do it and I thought, well, if he can do it and he's been a vet for that long, well then surely, you know, I realize that I'm still a new grad. So of course I should be able to do it too. So I learned, and at first it was uncomfortable because the pet parents are sort of suspicious of you because you look young and, you know, they can tell you're new, but I just, I learned to be comfortable saying, you know what, that's a great question. Or I'm not exactly sure what's going on here, but I'm going to look it up and I'm going to use my resources. And I would always tell people, and I think this made people feel really good about the practice. I would say we work as a team here in this practice and, you know, I will consult with other doctors on this case so we can come up with the best solution. So I learned to kind of have developed language like that and the confidence in saying that without feeling like I was looking weak or belittling myself, then if I was in a practice as a really fat and I was working by myself, it, that almost was more uncomfortable because I knew that in some ways I you're always being judged when you come into a new practice as a relief, that, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing. And it, it is just what it is. And we just all have to kind of accept it. But knowing that I would sometimes feel a little uncomfortable because I would think, oh, they're judging how good of a vet I am right now. And if I ask for help, they're gonna not trust me. Right. So I did have those feelings. I just swallowed my pride. I stamped down my ego and I just said, I'm going to do what's right for the patient. And what's right for the patient is for me to get more information and sometimes getting more information meant. I asked the technician and I will tell you that this happened on more and continues to happen when I work, especially when I work emergency shifts, you know, I am not afraid to ask the technician. What would Dr. So-and-so do in this circumstance? What have you seen them do? And sometimes it's because I'm not sure in the moment, sometimes it might be because I'm panicking and I can't pull forward. The knowledge that I know is in there sometimes it's, I have an idea of how I want to do, but I want to find out how someone else does it. Cause there's lots of ways to, to handle cases. And so with practice, you kind of get over that discomfort at asking questions. And what I have found is that the end of the day, the vast majority of people will actually you for it, rather than judge you harshly for it. Isn't that, isn't that the truth. It's amazing. When you just show that little bit of your humanness, then the whole, the whole atmosphere, Lee relaxes, cause they're freaked out to the, you know, especially when an emergency case and they're worried about their pet. So to show that we can be equally worried and also equally unsure in a moment, I think is really helpful. And that's such a great point about asking your technicians, especially seasoned technicians, technicians. Who've been with the practice for a while. I've been in the field for a while. What they can teach veterinarians is amazing. So getting kind of caught up in hierarchy, there never serves the clients or the patients at all. I definitely, as a new grad, I learned so much from my technicians and those, I mean, they were just invaluable to me in those first five years, a hundred percent. So it's such a great thing. So you went into relief work and you're a bit of a nomad when it comes to the relief work you like to travel around. So it's an interesting concept. And I think a lot of people that are considering relief, work love the idea of being able to travel and then support their travel with their work. But you actually do it. It's not just an idea for you. So tell us about how your relief work transitioned into that and why, So it originally transitioned into that? Well, I was mainly based in Florida and we were living in Florida and I was doing relief work. And I, I honestly, I didn't really think of it as a career choice at that time. I just thought I'm just hopping around. It was after my second round of internship and I decided not to go back to the primary practice where I had worked before, although they welcomed me back and they were a great practice. I just, I was kinda, I dunno, I'm kinda nosy. I wanted to see what else was going on out there. Like I'm a sampler. I always call myself a professional sampler and I wanted to see what other practices were like. So I started doing relief for that reason, but I really just thought, oh, you know, I'm going in, I'm doing the shift, I'm getting my paycheck. And off I go, I didn't really think too hard about it. Beyond that. Then my husband got a job at a photography school in Missoula, Montana. And so I suddenly had to, we were going to be there for six months from somewhere, somewhere around may through October. And I suddenly had to go introduce myself to a new veterinary community that I didn't know. And that was when I had the first shift of like, oh wow, I, this, I can be a business to business service provider or that's what I am. Right. And so I started sending out, I made business cards and I sent out marketing letters, you know, and my resume. And I kind of set myself up as a business and said, this is what I'm doing. I'm a really fat here I am to offer services in your town. And it did not take me long to figure out like how awesome it is to do that because I realized, okay, Jimmy and James, my husband, Jimmy, and I can have this lifestyle. I mean, how awesome is it to leave Florida in the summer for those of you who know what it feels like in the summer, it's great to leave here. And then how great is it to go live in Missoula, Montana. It is beautiful. And so that kind of set up that lifestyle of being a true business to business service provider and using that business to help us live in other parts of the country. So we went back to Missoula three years in a row, and then we've done Seattle. We've done California as and used relief practice as a way to, to fund that trip and help out colleagues and other states. That's awesome. So this, then, then there was relief Rover. So you've, you've had your, you know, you've been working through your career, you've been doing relief work. You've figured out the dialed in how to work in different places. Tell us where the idea of a relief Rover came from and what it is. So that was sort of the second evolution in my life as a relief vet. So I had that first shift of, oh, I'm a business to business service provider. And the clinic is my client. That was a big shift for me. Then the second shift came was when I looked around and I saw that there really weren't people speaking at veterinary conferences, there, there wasn't anything in the veterinary media really about relief professionals and what a service they provide to, you know, to our profession as a whole. And you know, we're starting to shift into that roam of burnout and work-life balance, and that's becoming the big topic in our profession. And that wasn't so much the topic when I graduated, right? Like I've lived through this, this shift and this change. And I realized that relief professionals are one solution to that, that problem. So I started to think like, how can, how can we make, how can we form a community of relief professionals and how can we use our numbers to support each other and help each other? And let's start getting the word out about what we actually provide to the community. And another thing, how so there, that idea was melding. And then another thing happened that sort of solidified it. I had single doctor practice in Truckee, California, reach out to me on LinkedIn. I didn't know her. She didn't know me. I'm living in Florida, she's in California. And she said, Hey, will you cover my maternity leave? And I was like, Hey, Jimmy, you don't want to go live in lake Tahoe over the summer. And he was like, sure. So I said, yes, well, we had a phone conversation for literally like maybe 20, 30 minutes after that phone conversation, we agreed, we packed our bags, threw the dogs in the car and moved to California. And it turned out brilliantly for both of us. I basically had my own practice for the summer. I worked Monday through Friday. I hiked in, played on Saturday and Sunday. She got to spend time with her baby. And it was a lovely experience really for both of us. And I thought, I can't possibly be the only person who's willing to do this. Right. Right. And there were, there were no resources to Connect people nationwide. There were regional staffing agencies. And again, this is when I came up with the idea. I think there've been some other things that have come out that are more national based. But when I came up with the idea, it was very regional. And my theory was that your pool of relief vets, aren't just the ones in your backyard that your pool of relief that's maybe anywhere you just don't know. People have all sorts of reasons for wanting to move and travel and live places for a period of time. So that was what I realized that that practices should be able to pull from a larger pool. And it would be a way better way to introduce yourself to, to a new community, if you're a relief that moving around, you know, or if you're a practice looking for a community of veterinarians. And the other thing that I really is really, really important to me and I'll explain what really forever is exactly in a second is relationship building. This is relief. Veterinarians are not just warm bodies with a vet degree to babysit your business, right? Although that is the way in some ways they've been treated, it's really been put about, you know, putting a bottom and a seat, but that is not what it's about. These are business to business relationships, and they should be treated as such and they should be built and nurtured as such. And I did not see that happening in all the relief staffing solutions that, that I could see. And so relief Rover was built to serve multiple purposes. We are a community of really professionals. We have over 2100 relief vets nationwide, and we're growing at about 60 to 90 a month. And so we're there to connect to each other to help each other out, but also to connect us to employers who are looking for independent contract feds and for the vast majority, those are hospitals looking for general practice, emergency shelter work. But sometimes we have employers on there who are looking for tele-health positions or writing positions. We've had a position for an editor consulting, things like that. So any type of employer, who's looking for an independent contract, that to do some type of project based work. So we connect them to employers, but we're also connecting, connecting them to resources, to help really professionals become better business to business service providers and kind of have that the tools to, to have that mindset shift and then to operate their business appropriately. And then using our numbers. We also provide discounts for, you know, educational solutions, CE solutions like fat girl plums. We have a, a partnership with fear-free. So if people want to get fear-free certified, we have a highly discounted rate for really, for members. So, and we'll continue to look for things like that to help our members run their businesses efficiently. Awesome. And so just to be really clear relief over isn't a staffing agency. So it's not like a traditional staffing agency where the contractor kind of becomes under the umbrella of the staffing agency and the staffing agency matches with the hospital and coordinate some of that. That's not how relief Rover works, right? Cause you're not a staffing agency, Correct. We are not a staffing agency. I always tell people we're more like a dating site or like a dating site meets LinkedIn because again, relationships are a big part of it. We want to help relieve professionals, build relationships with their customers who are the people who use their services. And we it's free for relief veterinarians. And we also have a nurse technician membership as well. So, and then the employer pays a subscription fee to come on. So that's how, it's how we run and how it's monetized. We do not sell our veterinarians. So let's say a veterinarian comes on to really forever. They find a relief position. They end up finding a great culture and a great match. They build a great relationship with that hospital and they decide to stay on as an associate. We just wish them well, we don't sell them many times. Staffing agencies will charge a fee and sometimes it can be in the tens of thousands of dollars range to basically buy out that veterinarian. We don't do that. And I don't believe in doing that because I feel like you're, I don't know you you're, you're your own business. And if, if there's that money to be passed around, I'd rather go it and have it go into the vet's pocket or stay with the hospital, or somehow they stay split it. So we don't sell our vets. And we don't take a piece of, of your fee. Often there's a 20 to 40% markup on either the hourly rate or the daily rate for a relief veterinary and through staffing agencies. We don't take any that we don't dictate what your fees are. You dictate what your fees are because your, your, your rates are may vary depending on your geography, depending on your experience level, depending on the services you offer. You know? So we don't, we don't want to dictate that we want to help you understand how to get there and how to become a relief business, but we don't want to take that piece of your income. So you really leave the details of the relationship to the people. So you've got the side of the veterinary professionals who are there, the veterinarians, the nurses, the technicians, who are there looking for opportunities to provide relief services. And then you have the organizational side where they're paying to be a member of, to advertise that they're looking for relief technicians or veterinarians nurses. And then they can basically search each other kind of to see what what's a good match. And then they, they meet up in the middle. Exactly. And we wanted to give our relief professionals, complete agency over how they use the platform. So a relief professional can choose to be visible or invisible to employers. So we encourage everyone to be visible because that's going to be the best way to build these relationships. But if you don't want to, because, you know, you want to be part of the community, but maybe your relief work is just completely booked up and you don't want employers reaching out to you. I mean, yeah, you don't want employers reaching out to you. Then you can be invisible. And you, if you see a job posting that you like you, you can apply to it, but you can control how you use the site and how, how much employers can reach out to you. And you can turn it on and off. You can put, we call it a resume, but really it's more of an employer facing profile. You can put your employer facing profile up. And then if you get too busy and too many are reaching out to you, you can just hide it. And then you're invisible for awhile. And then you want it back up. You just un-hide it. And so we make it real simple for you to control your own destiny. As far as that goes. I love that. And I think that's really important for people who are thinking about just getting into relief work to know that they can go, they can join relief over. It's not going to cost them any money. They can look around at what's out there. And by joining, they're not saying yes, I want to start relief work today. So they can really just kind of dip their toe into it, get used to how it all works. And then when they're ready to make their profile public, then they can do that. And if they want to shut it off, they could shut it off. I love that flexibility that you've really built in. So I think that kind of leads us to the next question, which is if a veteran, a veterinary technician, veterinary nurse was considering diving into relief work, what advice would you give them? I would say to think about a few things really think about your work style and, and your personality type. Because what I have found, I think some people want to go into relief practice because they're fed up with their current situation. And then they go into the relief practice and may find that it's really not for them. And I think that there are some character traits that make relief practice just more enjoyable. One thing is that you need to be flexible and you need to have a flexible, you have to have some like mental agility as far as you know, your medical mind, but also as far as working with people and approaching cases and how you do things, because you're not going to have the same resources at all of the practices that you work for. And the more particular you are about what type of practice you work for, the fewer options you'll have. And that may be okay. I'm not saying you shouldn't be particular, but if you're very rigid in the way you like to do things, you may find relief practice to be very frustrating. If you're very rigid in how you like workflow to go and how you like to work with your, with your, your colleagues and your technical staff, you may find a really practice really, really frustrating, because as a relief practitioner, you may have, you may be working in a practice where with really skilled clinical staff and you may work in a practice further, not so skilled. And you've got to flex to that situation and still kind of handle the cases and take care of things. And most importantly, still have it be enjoyable because if that situation isn't enjoyable to you, then you're probably not going to enjoy relief practice. So I would say, ask yourself those questions, like, am I flexible, or can I learn to be flexible? Or is that exciting to me to learn, to be flexible? Am I a people person? Because relief practice is very much about people. I mean, veterinary medicine is very much about people. Absolutely, absolutely. But it's true that if maybe you're not such a people person and you're with one team and you'd kind of get used to them and you know, the players, you know, like who you get along with, you don't get along with, and you've, you've reached some kind of equilibrium with that situation. Relief practice is going to throw that equilibrium way off because you're going to have to get used to new people all the time. And so I think being a people person really helps cause you're going to be working with new teams and being friendly and warm is really gonna, is, is going to help and just frankly, make it more fun. So those are the two biggest things. Can I be, am I a people person? And if you can answer yes to both those questions or if you're interested in learning to be flexible, because maybe you just don't know yet. Maybe you've never been in that situation. Then I think, you know, you're prepared and ready to give it a go. I love that. And I think about that flexibility piece and, and for those people who out there who are like, I am not flexible, this is never going to work. I love that. You said that you can learn to be flexible. What I found when I did relief work was that it being flexible became easier. The more different types of practices that I serve. So because, because what I was aware of change, right. And that's where I also found that really relying on the staff of the particular hospital and asking, how did you do it here? Really introduced me to a lot of other options that I just didn't come in with that in my head. But I left with it with my, in my head and I could apply it somewhere else. So have you found that also that, that your flexibility really does increase over your, as you have more experience with different practices A hundred percent because you are, yeah. You may start out like not being able to do a backbend at all, but you, the more you practice the, you know, you may eventually be able to get your hands over your head and on the ground. And that is so true. And, and frankly, that is, what's fun about it. And I think it's that. So it's that, that willingness to, to dive in and, and, and want to be in that state of flexibility, because you will learn something at every practice you go to and you'll have your toolkit for being a medical practitioner will get bigger and bigger and bigger as you go along. And if you find that type of thing fun, then, then you'll like really practice With what's happened since the pandemic. What is your view on the role of the relief fed and how that's changed since then? So what I noticed with the pandemic pre pandemic, I still think there's huge demand for, for relief professionals. And, you know, we keep a track of the, how many times an employer reaches out to a relief vet and how many times our relief that reaches out to the employer on really forever. We have that data. And it has always been about 10 times the amount of employers reaching out to relief that desert relief, that's reaching out to employers. And I think that's not surprising that would surprise no one in, in our world of a veterinary shortage. You know, that there aren't enough vets to fill all the shifts and, and to meet the demand for veterinary services. So right when the pandemic hit it flip-flopped because, because clinics were closing down or reducing their hours, or, you know, doing things like that and, and relief that's, we're getting some of their jobs canceled. And so that was the only time it flip-flopped. And now we are back to where, where it was. And I think what has happened is that the pandemic has actually driven even more demand for relief services because it's driven demand for veterinary services, right? So those go hand in hand, the more demand there is for veterinary services, the more demand there's going to be for relief services. And I don't see this going away anytime soon. So for those of you are thinking, yeah, I really interested in relief work, but how long can this really last, where we have plenty of work? I think it's going to last many, many years into the future because the, I don't think the demand for vendors services going to go away, we are not suddenly producing more and more than Canarians. Veterinarians are want a different type of work now, and a different type of work life work-life balance. And, and I don't think that's going to change. And that means that we're going to need more people to fill these shifts. And as long as we need that, there's going to be relief services are going to be needed. So I would say if you're interested in relief work, definitely explore it, definitely go for it. Remember nothing you do in life is permanent and forever. You can always change. And if you try it and you don't like it, no big deal. There's plenty of jobs out there. There's plenty of work. You will find your way. You will find another path. And honestly, relief practice sometimes helps people find their path. It helps people find their permanent place, their happy place where they want to stay. It can be a tool to do that as well as a career choice in and of itself. Yeah. Such great advice and such a wonderful point there to end on, because I think as people are trying to find their own individual path of veterinary medicine and I, and I do believe it is very individual. There's so many things we can do that when they get to that point where it's time to try a new job. There's so much, if they've had a few that haven't worked out as an associate, there's so much, they put so much pressure on themselves for the next one to be the right one. And just using relief work, even as a tool to try out some different things before you commit to something long-term really can provide a lot of opportunity. And you might just end up finding a career that you like even better by being able to serve lots of clinics instead of being restricted to a single one. Thank you so much for telling us all about really for over, you can learn more about relief email@example.com. We will link to it in the show notes and check it out for sure. Sign. There's absolutely no fee for veterinary professionals to sign up. So I definitely recommend that. And firstname.lastname@example.org, you have some resources available for people who are looking at getting into relief work. What does don't even know where to start? So do you have one in particular, an area in particular you would tell them to go dig into on your website? Yeah. We have a document called relief that 1 0 1, and it really just gives you a breakdown of how to set up your relief business. What are the benefits, what are the skills required? And it just gives you a nice overview and a real kind of leg up on getting started. Awesome. So we will also link directly to that area on the relief, over website as well in our show notes for anybody who's catching this, this podcast. And I can thank you so much for coming. It's been so great. We can't wait to see. It's been so fun to watch really for over evolved here over the last couple of years, and we can't wait to see what happens next. So thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast. Thanks for having me carry This month. We're excited to feature Dr. Cindy Tris inside of the joyful DVM membership. Dr. TRIBErs has graciously provided for our joyful DVM members, a presentation on the importance of the business to business relationship between relief professionals and veterinary practices. So if you want to take a listen to everything that she shares and the wisdom that she provides to the relief community definitely join us inside of the joyful DVM membership. You can find more information about email@example.com forward slash membership. And I'll link more information about Dr. Cindy Trice and relief over in the show notes. From this episode, in the meantime, you can find her on social media at app relief Rover, hope you have a great week, and I'll see you next time.